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Is work working for your people and organization? In this podcast, Mercer thought leaders, industry experts, and business visionaries share big ideas and best practices to help you build great workplaces and a future where work works for everyone. Making Work "Work" is a podcast for Mercer Workforce Solutions.

Welcome to Making Work "Work." I'm Andrew Lafontaine, partner at Mercer Workforce Solutions. Today, we're going to talk about one of the top drivers of talent attraction and retention. And to no surprise, it is all about salaries and benefits. We will share key findings from the recently released Mercer Total Remuneration Survey and Australian Benefits Review, yes, I know, a very long title, but we'll dive into that in a little while, along with our perspective on what organizations should prioritize to motivate their people and attract talent they need in 2025 and beyond.

Now, we all that in the early post-pandemic years, the job market was absolutely booming. Pay rises were there for everybody, and many positions soared as workers switched jobs for better pay, that elusive work-life balance, and trying to find their purpose. However, our data shows now that the situation is changing, hiring is slowing, turnover has declined, and organizations are adjusting their budgets in a market that seems to be shifting in favor of employers, and we have recently seen that with some of the announcements by some very large organizations around returning to the office.

To explore this topic, let me welcome our guests and dive straight into it. Nithya Abram, general market leader at Digital & Insights, welcome to the show.

Hello, Andrew. Hello, everyone.

And I've also got Don Barrera, client engagement manager at Digital & Insights. Thanks for joining us today, Don.

Thanks, Andrew. It's a pleasure to be here.

OK, so let's get straight into it, guys. So what is the Mercer Total Remuneration Survey telling us about what's happening across Australia and were you at all surprised by any of the findings?

Absolutely, it's really interesting to see how the power dynamics are shifting towards employers. So according to the survey that was released in October, which gathered insights from over 1,200 Australian organizations, employers are planning to budget a bit less for raises next year. Now when we look at the overall budgets, that is the salary budgets for 2024, which includes your performance, merit-based budgets, adjustments for promotions and cost of living increases, they've remained stable at 4%, just like last year. And interestingly, the payroll budgets are forecasted to stay at 4% for 2025 as well.

But what caught me off guard was that last year, employers were forecasting a 3.5% merit budget for 2024, yet the actual merit budget figures this year exceeded that forecast, coming in at 3.8% Now, while it might seem like it's just 0.3% point increase, it's actually the highest we've seen in the last decade. Now, what do you think drove that? This unexpected increase in adjustments were largely due to the challenges businesses faced in attracting and retaining talent, and many organizations had to offer higher wages just to stay competitive.

And with the rising cost of living, how many of us have felt that squeeze, right? So many employers are stepping up to adjust salaries to help their employees manage those extra expenses. Doesn't that reflect a real commitment to employee well-being, especially in a tightening labor market? However, as we look ahead, there's a noticeable shift. Now, with employee turnover settling back to the pre-pandemic levels and the demand for new hires starting to cool off, budgets are also stabilizing. So for next year, employers are looking to allocate 3.6% of their compensation budgets for merit salary increases for current employees.

Nithya, you mentioned the cost of living there, and as we know, the cost of living is on the front-- I was going to say the front news papers, but nobody buys a paper anymore, we all scroll online-- but there's no doubt that that's impacting everybody. And I suppose that impacts people's situation in terms of staying and in their current job. And you talked a little bit about that, mentioning that employee turnover. Let's just focus on that issue for a moment.

So not too long ago, the headlines revolved around the Great Resignation and the talent shortages that were forcing salaries in many roles and industries to increase. Recently, there's been a decline in job vacancies, which basically means that there are fewer opportunities for employees to jump ship. And we've also seen that people staying put, maybe they're quiet quitting or not, but they are definitely staying put. So what's Mercer's data saying about the current state of the employment market?

Great question, Andrew. Right now, employees are really seeking job stability, especially with everything going on in the world. Now, it's no surprise they're less likely to seek new opportunities. We've seen a significant drop in the employee turnover. Now, it peaked at just over 21% in 2022, but fell to just over 18% last year. That's more in line with what we saw pre-pandemic. What a relief, right? Now, for the first half of 2024, though, we are looking at an average turnover rate of just under 11%. With the hiring market slowing down, I think we will continue to see this downward trend in turnover.

As workers prioritize security in their roles, organizations are realizing that keeping employees is becoming more important than just hiring new ones. Interestingly, employers are feeling more confident about managing turnover, with nearly 2/3 saying that they feel in control now, which is up from 55% last year. Now that's the highest confidence we've seen in four years. It's nice to see that kind of optimism, but there's still a lot of uncertainty out there, especially with inflation, high interest rates and overall economy as we look ahead to 2025.

Now, with retention getting stronger, the urgency to bring in new talent has lessened, and organizations are now focusing more on managing costs and optimizing their existing workforce instead of aggressively hiring. And our survey also shows that hiring intentions have been declining year over year since 2022, hitting a low this year, with only one in four employers planning to add new staff in 2025. Plus a record 30% are still unsure about their hiring plans. It makes you wonder how this will all play out.

So overall, the labor market is rebalancing with vacancies now at 2.2%, the lowest we've ever seen in over three years. And while employees feel more in control of turnover, we have to remember that market dynamics can change quickly. It is crucial for organizations to develop and engage their key talent to thrive in this competitive landscape. And let's not forget, fair pay is also becoming a top priority for employees when it comes to staying in their current roles. It's fascinating how much the landscape has changed.

Yeah, look, I don't think there's any doubt that it's a very complex landscape at the moment, and that balance between-- the balance of power, let's call it, between employees and employees is shifting, because I think we've seen, as I said, quite a few large organizations emboldened to be a bit more directive around their return to work. And if we go back four or five years, there was definitely a concern that if organizations did that, people would resign. We've now got this movement called the Great Retention. We do love our phrases in corporate, that we the. Great Retention.

But the danger in this Great Retention is that we might be holding on to people who aren't engaged, who-- and then that's part of the, I think, the hybrid challenge is that, do we have a lot of people who are sitting at home who potentially aren't engaged, but staying because the labor market is shifting. Don, what's the data showing us around employees-- employers, I should say, in motivating and inspiring employees, how employees are thinking about this, and what are the key messages that those listening should know?

Yeah, well, a big surprise that we observed was we were putting these reports together this year was that even during a challenging cost of living crisis, the data showed that just under half of surveyed Australian employees would actually forego that 10% pay rise in exchange for well-being benefits, increased contributions to retirement programs. And then we also saw that 34% stated that they would do it for fully flexible or compressed working hours. So we know that benefits play an important role in retention and engagement and creating that thriving workforce, but we also know that employees are tired, they're stressed out, and they're at risk of burnout.

So the reasons for burnout may vary, but almost one in three employees tell that they're at that risk due to financial strain. And in the APR data, it suggests that employees are looking to their employers for support in times of crisis. This year, we saw many organizations start to recognize employees, maybe under this financial strain, as 29% of organizations now offer financial wellness programs. And although that doesn't actually seem like a significant prevalence, it's worth noting that, compared to last year, that's an 11% point increase.

So this trend shows that more companies recognize the importance of offering financial advice and support through education sessions to their employees. And some of these sessions might include financial management advice, planning for retirement, or just simply helping them understand and implement insurance to protect their income. Providing information for long-term financial planning and offering targeted financial education to specific demographics or groups within the workforce would help alleviate their financial concerns.

Yeah, it's an interesting thread there. Even though people are stating that their biggest concerns have to do with financial pressures and increasing cost of living, they're looking at their employers to help ease these concerns for their futures, and not just for right now.

That's right. Yeah, these employee benefits and HR practices can help energize employees who have chosen to stay within the workforce. And we're starting to see signs of that, employers are listening to those employees that do.

Let's just drill down on that one a little bit around the flexible work and what the ABR, so the Australian Benefit Review data, is actually telling us. Because you can't have a conversation today about flexible work and hybrid working, four-day work weeks, you mentioned that 34% of employees say they would forgo a pay rise for fully flexible or compressed working hours, so that's obviously still a very big factor since the pandemic, around how employees think about where they work, how they work, et cetera.

So what is the data telling us about the whole flexible work? Has that been shifting? Is dynamics and that being shifted as well in this last 12 months? Don and Nithya?

Yeah, look, the data is showing us that flexibility is still king and it's still relevant. In fact, two of the top three observed benefits in the Australian market today have to do with flexibility. So when referring to flexible work or flexibility, it's important to distinguish between the flexibility of space and the flexibility of time. And at times, some employees are afforded the combination of both.

Now, when it comes to the flexibility of space, the APR data shows that the vast majority of organizations still offer the option for telecommuting or working from home. And what's interesting about this is that the pandemic didn't really catapult this into one of the most prevalent benefits today. In fact, in 2019, 81% were already offering the option to work from home, and it's just been growing steadily since to 89% this year. So I know that there's been a lot of media push about mandating employees back into the office full time, but it's also important to note that there's been some other large organizations pushing to keep offering hybrid and work from home opportunities to their employees, as long as those employees remain productive.

The APR data shows that only one in three organizations currently have a formal return to office policy or strategy in place. And for those that do have that, the return to office policy or strategy, the mandate employees to come into the office just three days a week.

Now, shifting back, when it comes to the flexibility of time, there's no surprise that flexitime remains the most commonly available to employees, and we may start to see this shift in the next couple of years. And I guess only time will tell whether or not we're going to see exactly the same way that we're seeing it today.

But what I found most fascinating about this year's data is that we're seeing some more unusual, flexible arrangements emerge as a way to differentiate their employee value proposition. So, of course, we heard about it a lot last year, there's the four day weeks, where you can work four days instead of five with no loss to your pay. And it's quite slow to pick up, but it has steadily increased year on year. And of course, there's also the compressed working year where employees can work an equivalent of 48 weeks in 40 weeks.

But the most interesting one that we saw this year, actually, was one organization reported experimenting with an unusual retention incentive. This company provides the employees the option to work four years at 80% salary and take the fifth year as leave, while still being paid that pro-rata amount. So I think maybe the key takeaway that we see when it comes to flexible work and flexibility is that it is a vehicle to use to achieve work life balance, which still continues to be a key focus for both employees and employers today.

Yeah, I was going to say, Don, I think that's a really important point. You highlighted the difference between maybe some of the headlines we see around the push to return to office. But that is a fascinating one about the 80% of salary over that four year period and taking the fifth year as leave, and we might have to ask Mercer whether that's an option for us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Let's shift gears a little bit and get back to a topic that's closest to my heart, and let's talk about pay. What have you seen around, Nithya, the incentives, and how could these be used for employee retention, given what's going on at the moment?

Absolutely. So when it comes to pay and incentives, we're really seeing a shift in how organizations approach employee retention. Now it's not just about salary anymore, it's about creating a comprehensive package that truly resonates with employees. Now, incentives can take many forms, bonuses, profit sharing, or even non-monetary rewards, like extra time off or professional development opportunities. And these strategies can be powerful tools for keeping employees engaged and motivated.

For instance, performance-based bonuses not only reward hard work, but also align employees' goals with the company's success. It's a win-win, right? So while organizations focused on attracting top talent for critical business areas in 2023 and were willing to pay a premium, we're now seeing new higher pay rates drop this year. And the data suggests that salary budgets for 2025 will shift towards retaining and developing existing employees. It's interesting how priorities are evolving.

We also saw increased momentum in the short term incentives in 2024. So these incentives are widely offered across all career streams. Typically, actual payouts are less than targets, but this year, we're seeing actual bonus payouts much closer to the targets across most career levels. For example, directors received about 90% of their target bonus, which is up from 79% in 2023, while managers received 86% of their target, compared to just 80% the previous year.

So this positive trend raises an interesting question. Are employers are increasingly using performance based bonuses to retain top talent? And let's not overlook the importance of fair pay. Employees are placing a higher priority on equitable compensation, and organizations that prioritize transparency and fairness in their pay structures are likely to see improved retention rates, and it's all about making employees feel valued and appreciated for their contributions.

So in a nutshell, leveraging a mix of financial and non-financial incentives can significantly help organizations retain their top talent. And it's about creating a culture where your employees feel supported and motivated to grow with the company.

Yeah, and I think, Nithya, the challenge that organizations will continue to face is for different employees that trade off between pay, variable pay, performance-based pay versus flexibility is never going to be a one size fits all for employees, and that's where organizations are going to have to try and have as a flexible remuneration structure as possible to try and really meet as many needs as they can. But that's going to be an ongoing challenge for them.

I wouldn't mind asking the following question to both of you, yourself and Don, because I don't think we can have a conversation about any of this without touching on one of my favorite topics in AI and in productivity, because I think when we talk about retention and performance, AI has now become an area that most organizations, if not all organizations, are working through the impacts. Definitely, employees are expecting their organizations to ensure their skills remain relevant to protect their future employability. We've got half of-- 53% of Australian employees trusting their organizations will teach them the skills they'll need if their job changes as a result of AI or automation.

So it's a really big area of focus, but also a really big area of concern for many employees. What are we seeing in the data, Don?

Yeah, so the ABR actually found that 60% of organizations now have learning and development programs available for the whole organization. And so as AI technologies become increasingly sophisticated, there's that glaring concern of the potential that automation will take over certain job functions that has traditionally been carried out by people. One of the fascinating things about AI is that, as you mentioned, is the capability to sift through massive amounts of data and tackle complex tasks at lightning speed. And although this is great, it does make us pause and think about the role of human skills and expertise in the workplace. Are we at risk of undervaluing what people are bringing to the table?

But on the flip side, there are actually there are quite a few of us here at Mercer that share an optimistic sentiment about AI and how it can open up a world of opportunities for boosting efficiency and productivity.

Absolutely.

But it's not just a matter of jumping on that AI bandwagon. Organizations need to approach this transition with care, and it's essential for them to actively invest in reskilling and upskilling their workforce. After all, as technology evolves, so too should the skills of the people who use it. In this way, we can ensure that everyone is equipped to thrive in this increasingly automated world.

But let's talk about where the budgets for learning and development are actually being spent. According to the latest ABR report, 89% of organizations are directing their budgets towards leadership development. And the second was selected option was people management skills. But what's most interesting is that when we look at the biggest shifts over the last three years, the most significant increases in investment have been in areas like digital dexterity and collaboration skills. So this shouldn't be really surprising to us, because in an era where automation is on the rise and flexibility remains the most sought after benefit, it's essential to equip people with the skills they need to thrive.

After all, ensuring that employees are digitally savvy and able to collaborate is key to maintaining business continuity and employee productivity.

Yeah, those are excellent insights, Don. And in fact, Mercer's 2024 Global Talent Trends report revealed that half of the survey respondents are focusing on gaining a clear understanding of their employees skills and development needs. And this is a foundational step. It's crucial for identifying areas where additional training or upskilling is required. And what else are organizations doing here?

Well, I see many organizations are also implementing reskilling and upskilling programs, with nearly half actively preparing their employees to transition into new roles by providing the necessary training and support, which is fantastic, as it's vital for employees to have opportunities to grow and to adapt. And additionally, organizations are also nudging their employees to pursue training based on their job or skill aspirations. And this personalized approach helps individuals align their learning with their career goals, ensuring they acquire the right skills for future success.

And I also saw that 38% of the organizations plan to be more intentional in mapping, learning pathways, skills acquisition, and future job opportunities. So the strategic focus not only helps employees understand potential career paths, but also equips them with skills needed for those roles.

Thanks, Don. I think we've really had some fantastic insights into what's been going on here. What I'd love to do is maybe close with some really practical steps organizations can take. So, Don, I want to start with you. What are some of the practical strategies you recommend for organizations to attract and retain the talent they need in 2025 and beyond, based on all the data that we've got through the insights, we've been able to work with organizations, what would you be saying to organizations right now?

Yeah, look, it may seem simple, but simply ask and then listen. It's worth engaging with your people, whether that's through one-on-ones with line managers or through engagement surveys, to understand what their people need. But essentially, all you want to do is to understand what will motivate them and will keep them happy and productive, it all comes back down to that productivity.

Now, that's a great insight. And what about yourself, Nithya?

Yeah, I totally have to agree with that. And look, engaging with employees is crucial because the information we gather from them really helps us identify gaps and areas for improvement in our AVP. So one important step is to benchmark against industry standards. Organizations should compare their offerings with those of other companies in the industry to ensure they stay competitive and relevant. And this helps them understand where they stand and what adjustments they might need to make.

And so the next step is to tailor their offerings based on the insights they gain. So by customizing both financial and non-financial benefits, organizations can better meet the diverse needs of their workforce, ensuring that the AVP truly resonates with employees at all levels and makes them feel valued and understood. And so when employees see say that their specific needs and preferences are being considered, it fosters a stronger connection to the organization and enhances overall satisfaction and retention.

Thank you, both Nithya and Don, for sharing those insights today. Look, that this is an ever changing landscape of talent and retention and attraction for organizations, but also the way employees think about what their careers look like. It's clear that the job market continues to evolve. Organizations must be proactive in adapting their employee value propositions. It's probably more important now than it ever has been, not only to attract, but also to retain that top talent.

We know that focusing on fair compensation, flexible work arrangements, and support for employee well-being are all critical. Companies can create an environment where their workforce feels valued and engaged in 2025 and beyond, but they really need to think about all the different things that we've touched on today in a much more integrated strategy for their employees. Nithya, thank you very much for your time.

My pleasure, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

And Don, thank you very much as well.

Thanks, Andrew. It's been an absolute pleasure.

I'm Andrew Lafontaine. Thanks for listening to Making Work "Work" from Mercer Workforce Solutions, and we'll see you next time.

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I hope you enjoyed today's podcast, and thank you for listening. Please subscribe to keep up to date with our latest episodes. And if you have any questions, get in touch with us via our website at mercer.com.au.

The views and opinions expressed by the podcast speakers are solely their own and do not represent the opinion of Mercer. This content is general information only, and it should not be relied upon or used as a substitute for professional advice. This content has been produced by Mercer Consulting Australia Proprietary Limited. Mercer is a registered trademark of Mercer Australia Proprietary Limited.

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Is work working for your people and organization? In this podcast, Mercer thought leaders, industry experts and business visionaries share big ideas and best practices to help you build great workplaces and a future where work works for everyone. Making Work 'Work' is a podcast for Mercer Workforce Solutions.

Welcome to Making Work 'Work.' I'm Cynthia Cottrell. Today, we're going to explore a workforce challenge that is near and dear to my heart. And it represents the life's work of my guest today.

The topic, women in STEM. Where are they? And why aren't there more of us? So Australia's STEM-skilled workforce has a disproportionate underrepresentation of women compared to other industries.

Only 15% of Australia's STEM-skilled workforce are women, whereas, the broader Australian workforce has close to 50% female participation. So this is a problem, especially since tech jobs have grown at four times the rate of other jobs since the mid 1980s. Now one in 14 working Australians are in a tech job with more software engineers than plumbers, hairdressers, or baristas, according to a recent report issued by the Tech Council of Australia.

With ChatGPT, hyperdigitalization of everyday home and work processes, low-code, or no-code tools that can work from your phone, it's clear that whether you are directly in a STEM role or not, most of us will need to become STEM oriented in one way or another. So the good news, the number of women enrolling in university STEM courses has increased by 24% between 2015 and 2020 compared with a 9% increase among men. So we are seeing the right trajectory of building the pipeline of females who could go on to take STEM-qualified jobs. But will this be enough to truly change the game?

As a mom of two precocious girls, I am particularly keen to see the acceleration of females taking on STEM roles. I do realize my daughters are fortunate and that they have two parents who have degrees in engineering, so STEM talk is pretty normal in our household. But I know this is not the case for many girls who are often in the minority as it relates to their studies, their interests, or their hobbies in STEM, which is why Mercer is working with Tech Girls Movement Foundation to sponsor key initiatives and programs focused on developing future female STEM leaders.

Techgirls' vision is to see a society in which girls confidently lead in STEM entrepreneurship and contribute to their community and the economy. And today, we are speaking with the founder of the Tech Girls Movement Foundation, Jenine Beekhuyzen. Jenine, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Cynthia. I love the story about your family. And I'm putting your girls on the list of our recruits for next year.

Oh, please do. Yes, absolutely. I'll let them know. So hey, Jenine, tell us a bit more about your background. What attracted you to the field of STEM careers? And what drove you to create the Tech Girls Movement 10 years ago?

Thanks, Cynthia. I think you've touched on it in your intro in that you are an incredible role model for your girls, regardless of if you realize it. And the fact that-- I mean, yes, you may be very fortunate, and your girls are fortunate. But they can see you doing these incredible things, solving problems that are important.

And if you can't see it, you can't be it in my experience. So having those role models, having mentors, having people to show pathways that we may not have seen otherwise are really important. So I love that you touched on that in your intro.

And so fortunately, I've had many role models and mentors who've paved the way for me to be here. And I wouldn't be here without them. And certainly, I have technical skills. I have abilities to hopefully solve problems in our communities and encourage a community of young people to do the same. But certainly, I have a-- building on the back of other people in front of me who have changed the world and shaped the world with technology.

And as you talk about so many interesting technologies in the world today, how can we use them for-- how can we use technology for good? And that's really what Techgirls is about. It's about using technology for good, finding problems in our community we want to solve, encouraging young people to be empowered and be courageous to go and bravely solve problems where maybe others haven't done before them. And we're here to support them. And we have a community of amazing technology people.

That's awesome, Jenine. And I love that saying that you can't be what you can't see. I'm going to reveal my age a little bit.

But when I was going through my engineering degree more than 25 years ago, I was one of only three in my graduating class in my major in systems engineering. And I do remember feeling isolated at times and certainly not amongst a lot of other females that I could confide in and/or discuss how I was feeling as I was going through my studies. But I was able to push on, and I did have a wonderful network of family and friends who supported me.

And I think as you talk about the vision of Techgirls and what it means to provide that kind of support, and encouragement, and confidence-- there's a confidence factor here, isn't there, Jenine? --about what it means to pursue a field where you are often the minority as a female. It'll be great to hear a little bit more about what the types of activities and support are that are offered through Techgirls and how you are finding this impactful.

Thanks, Cynthia. I love that. And I think confidence comes from a number of things. I think it comes from not just being aware of I can use technology to solve problems, but having hands-on digital skills.

And if we think about statistics-- and my background is a researcher, so everything I do is based in research, and numbers, and evidence. And the UN tells us that women and girls are being left behind in terms of digital skills. And they're not engaging in where we need them to be. And they should be part of creating solutions for the future, and they're just not there for many different reasons.

So what Techgirls is really designed to do is firstly to give girls choices in life to say, well, let's get some digital skills, which I believe are very much aligned with English literacy, and math literacy, and digital literacy. And we need these skills as basic human skills that we all need to survive in everyday life. And so let's get those skills.

And then let's build some confidence around them. Let's get some hands-on learning and build some skills so that we can be confident, and hopefully, take it to the next level and be a little bit brave to use them in a place we may not have used them before. But it's about empowering all of us and not just girls, but all of us to use technology in a way that's good for everyone.

Yeah. As we step back a little bit and just think about why this is so important now-- I just talked about what it was like 25 years or so ago. And you've talked a little bit about your early career interest in STEM. And here we are still talking about this today as an urgent need, a critical need for the future of the workforce, particularly, females in STEM.

I was reading a study-- or a result that came out in a report released just a few months ago that stated that if AI was behind a lot of the hiring today, they would actually-- AI would actually hire more women than if humans are sitting at the recruitment end. So you can kind of feel in a statement like that. It sounds great. But at the same time, who is building that technology? And how is that really helping us create a more diverse workforce? What are your thoughts on how this world of AI and who is behind building these very powerful platforms, how that will also shape the future of the workforce in society?

I love that you're exploring that, that exciting new place where we are, Cynthia. And if we can take that in two parts, I think-- firstly, I've been researching the lack of women in technology and broadly STEM for 24 years now. So I was very fortunate I had a couple of role models myself who were academics who were looking at the lack of women in tech back in 1997. So there were certainly pioneers in this space.

So they recognized the s of women walking across the stage graduating in the information technology degrees at Griffith University. And so I fortunately joined their research team and have been studying it ever since. And I guess, that brings us to where we are today.

But funnily enough, not much has changed in almost 25 years in terms of the purpose of why I do what I do and why this is important. So I was studying AI back in 1998 as part of my undergraduate degree, so this stuff isn't new in some ways. And I guess, back then, there were even concerns of, who are we leaving behind? And what does AI have the capability of bringing forward and also-- yeah, marginalizing. And I guess, often in the AI space, marginalized voices are further marginalized.

And I love the study that you quoted. And I did actually look that up before we had this conversation today because much of the narrative before today and pointing out of that story has been that CVs are generally processed by AI by the biggest companies. They're generally programmed by, dare I say, middle-aged white men, but the majority. And therefore, they're using words that men usually wouldn't use in their CVs.

So I have certainly read studies where women are actually left out of that recruitment process because of the AI. So I'd love to explore that further. And I think if that's possible, I love that.

But that's not what we've seen so far. So that certainly has prompted me from a really long time ago to do what I do because I think these technologies have an ability to leave populations out. And I don't think that's useful for us to build useful digital futures for everyone.

I think of something quite tangible every day. In fact, I use my phone for probably more purposes other than talking through it, so probably spending a bit too much time from the screen. But talking about the way technology and platforms are built and not having enough diversity behind that, I think about my phone and the fact that, to this day, I can't hold it in one hand and swipe from left to right because I can't actually reached my finger across the width of the screen.

That might suggest that whomever designed it has much bigger hands than me and likely much bigger hands than most women who are holding that phone. And so you can only imagine what would the world be like if we had more diversity, more diverse thinking in the design of these platforms, again, whether it be your phone, or certainly, these very powerful platforms that are making decisions about hiring, about selecting, about inferring knowledge. So I think the why is pretty much right in front of us every day, isn't it, Jenine?

Absolutely. I love that example. And some of the-- I'm not sure if you know. One of the most interesting example-- and I'm sure people are not really proud of it.

But when we started using our phones to take videos, the videos would always be of a certain orientation. And it would always default to a certain orientation. And that was because it didn't actually allow for people with left hands-- left-handed people, I should say.

Left hands. Left hands. We all have left hands, but sorry, left-handed people. And so I guess, that concept of we just-- there's diversity in so many different parts. It's not around just gender specifically, but so many ways that we can tap into all of our awesomeness.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Coming back against the impact of Techgirls, this is the 10-year anniversary of the foundation. So lots of girls have passed through the program. And as you say, they can start the program as early as age six. Is that right?

Correct. We generally start it at eight. But we've had seven-year-olds say, can we be in the program? And they've built apps to look for animals in their local community and track them, so certainly.

The research tells us that girls opt out as young as six out of STEM. And that's why we're open from that age. But certainly, we run workshops as young as we can to open the possibilities for young people that technology can be used for good.

And so let's talk a little bit about the impact over the years. It'd be wonderful just to hear some stories from you. What a great job have, to be able to get up every morning and young woman by woman be able to shape their thinking about STEM and in careers. It'd be wonderful just to hear a little bit more about the program you run and the impact it's had.

Absolutely. I guess, we started-- so we launched 10 years ago, International Women's Day 2014. And it was really, for me, about turning research into practice. We know what the problem is. We know why we don't have enough women in the technology space and more broadly in the STEM space. What can we practically do to change that?

So I designed a program called Techgirls to essentially address that problem. And it's really around lack of visible female role models and then also, what do people in technology do? So we know what a doctor does. We know what a lawyer does. But what does a technologist do?

And even myself on a day-to-day basis, I'm not sure what most of us do because we make up all of these names for creative things that we do. But certainly, there's a lot of space for finding out what people and what the possibilities are for careers in this space. So we created a campaign called Tech Girls Are Superheroes, which is a series of books that profile women in technology as superhero characters who changed the world.